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13 March 1968
In her talk of 27 May 1953, Mother gave the following answer to the question of a disciple:
“Can the Divine withdraw from us?”
“That is an impossibility. Because if the Divine withdrew from something, immediately it would collapse, for it would not exist. To put it more clearly: The Divine is the only existence.”
Now I would have answered: it is as though you asked whether the Divine could withdraw from Himself! (Mother laughs.) That is the trouble: when one says “Divine'', they understand “God''.... There is only That: That alone exists. That, what is it? That alone exists!
(Silence)
Even this morning, I was looking, seeing, and it was as though I was saying to the Divine, “Why do You take pleasure in denying Yourself?''... Is it not to satisfy our logic that we say: All that is obscure, all that is ugly, all that is not living, all that is not harmonious, all that is not divine – but how is it possible?... It is only an attitude for action. Then by placing myself in the consciousness of the action, I said, “But why do You take pleasure in being like that!'' (Mother laughs.) It was a very concrete experience of the cells, and with the feeling (not feeling: neither feeling nor sensation), a kind of perception that you are just, just on the border of the great secret.... All of a sudden a whole set of cells or a certain bodily function takes the fancy of going wrong – why? What meaning is there in that? And the response was ... it was as though Page - 108 all that helped to break the limits. But why, how?... You can explain everything mentally, but that signifies nothing at all: for the body, for the material consciousness it is abstract. The material consciousness, when it seizes something, it knows the thing a hundred times better than one can know it mentally. And when it knows, it has power: this gives the power. And it is this that is worked out slowly, slowly – and for the ignorant consciousness, slowly and painfully. But for the true consciousness, it is not so: pain, delight, all this is a way... so absurd a way of seeing things – of feeling them, seeing them. There is a perception more and more concrete that everything... that there is nothing that does not contain the delight of being, because it is the way of being: without the delight of being, there is no being. But it is not what we understand mentally by the delight of being. It is... something that is difficult to say. And this perception of suffering and delight, almost of evil and good, all this, these are necessities for the work, to allow the work to be done in a certain field of inconscience. Because the true consciousness is something altogether, altogether different. And this, it is this which this consciousness of the cells is now learning, and learning through a concrete experience, and all these evaluations of what is good and what is bad, of what is suffering and what is delight, all this appears vague. But still the Thing – the Truth – the concrete Thing is not yet seized. It is on the way, one feels that it is on the way, but it is not yet that. If one had it... one would be the omnipotent master. And it is possible that one can get it only when the entire world or a sufficient part of it will be ready for transformation. This is a speculation, one might call it an inspiration, but it belongs yet to the domain high above. From time to time, it is as though one just touched upon the perception of the all-power: one is just on the point, ah! Page -109 (Mother makes a gesture of catching the thing)... but off it goes. When one will have that, the world will be able to change. And when I say “one'', I do not speak of a person.... There is perhaps something which is equivalent to the Person, but that... that also, I am not sure if it is not a projection of our consciousness upon something which escapes us. Sri Aurobindo used to say always that if one went far enough, beyond the Impersonal, if one went further beyond, one would find something that we could call “Person'', but which corresponded to nothing that we conceive of as “Person''. So then there, there is only That; and it is That which has Power. But even when we say, “There is only That'' (Mother laughs), we place it in some other thing!... Words, languages are unfit to express something that is beyond consciousness; as soon as you formulate, it sinks down. Page - 110
You have the feeling that all the time – all the time – you are on the way towards a great discovery, and then you do make the discovery, and you find out that it has always been made!... Only you look at it in another way. This morning, an experience that seemed to be an unusual revelation and... it is a thing that was always known. Then you mentalise it; the very moment you mentalise it, it becomes clear, but it is no longer what it was. Well, one may say that this creation is the “creation of equilibrium'',¹ and it is just the mental error which wants to choose one thing and reject another. All things have to be together: what you call good and what you call evil, what you call fair and what you call foul, what seems to you pleasant and what seems to you unpleasant, all this must be together. And this morning, it was the discovery of the Separation this Separation which has been described in all sorts of different ways, sometimes as a story, sometimes merely in an abstract manner, sometimes philosophically, sometimes... all this, these are only explanations, but there is something, which probably is simply the Objectivisation (Mother makes a gesture of pushing the universe out, out of the Non-manifest), but this also is a way of explaining. This so-called Separation, what is it exactly? One does not know. Or perhaps one knows, I don't know. It is just That which has created (let us put it in colour) the black and white, the night and day (this is already a more mixed thing, but black and white also are a mixed thing), but the tendency is to put up two poles: the pleasant thing, the good thing, and the unpleasant thing, the bad thing. But as soon as you seek to return to the Origin, the two tend to fuse into each other.
¹ Let us recall a remark Mother made in 1963: “Traditions say that a universe is created, then withdrawn in the pralaya, then a new one comes and so on; and according to them we should be the seventh universe and being the seventh universe, we are that which will not return into pralaya but progress constantly without going back.'' (Cent. Vol. 4, p. 23 fn) Page - 111 And it is in perfect equilibrium, that is to say, where no division is possible any more and where the one has no influence over the other, where the two are only one, that there is this famed Perfection which one is trying to reconquer. The rejection of the one and the acceptance of the other is childishness. It is an ignorance. And all mental translations, like that of an Evil eternally evil, giving rise to the idea of Hell, and of a Good eternally good... all this, all, all are childishness.
(Silence)
It may be (it may be, because as soon as you want to formulate, you mentalise and as soon as you mentalise, it is reduced, diminished, limited, it loses the force of truth in the end) that in this universe as it is constituted, perfection is... (Mother remains absorbed for a long time). Words fail. One could say like this (it is dry and lifeless): It is the consciousness of the unity of the whole felt in the individual – felt, lived, realised. But that is nothing, these are nothing but words.... The universe seems to have been created to realise this paradox of the consciousness of the whole, living (not merely perceived but lived) in every part, in every element constituting the whole. Then as to the formation of these elements, it began by the Separation and it is the Separation which gave birth to this division between that one calls the good and the bad; but from the point of view of sensation – sensation in the most material part one can say it is suffering and Ananda. The movement then is to stop all separation and realise the total consciousness in every part – which is from the mental point of view an absurdity, but it is like that. For my taste it is much too philosophical, it is not sufficiently concrete; but the experience of this morning was concrete, and it was concrete because it came out of extremely concrete sensations in the body, of the presence of this constant Page - 112 duality (in appearance), of an opposition (not merely opposition but the negation of the one by the other) between... we may take as a symbol suffering and Ananda. And the true state – which it seems impossible to formulate in words for the moment, but which was lived and felt – is a totality containing all, but instead of containing all as elements confronting one another, it is a harmony of all, an equilibrium of all. And when this equilibrium will be realised in the creation, this creation will be able to... (if words are spoken, it is no longer that) one could say: continue to progress without rupture (it is not that). There was also seen in the present imperfect consciousness, these days, repeatedly (but all that, methodical and organised through an organisation of the whole infinitely superior to any we can imagine), a state which is the one determining the rupture of equilibrium, that is to say, the dissolution of the form, what is usually called “death'', and this state up to its extreme limit, as a demonstration along with, at the same time, the state (not the perception but the state) preventing this rupture of equilibrium and permitting the continuity of the progress without rupture. And this gives in the body consciousness the simultaneous (so to say, simultaneous) perception of what one might call the extreme agony of dissolution (although it is not quite that, but still) and then the extreme Ananda of union the two simultaneous. Thus, translated in ordinary words: extreme frailty – more than frailty – of the form, and the eternity of the form. And it is not merely union, but the fusion, the identification of the two which is the Truth. When it is mentalised, it becomes clear for everybody – it loses its essential quality, something that cannot be mentalised.
It is the consciousness of the two states that must be simultaneous?
Not divided. It is the union of the two states which makes the Page - 113 true consciousness, the union of the two “union'' still implies division – the identification of the two which makes the true consciousness. And then one has the feeling that it is that, it is that consciousness, which is the supreme Power. Power is limited by oppositions and negations, is it not? – the most powerful power is the one that dominates most; but it is wholly an imperfection. There is, however, an all-powerful Power which is made of the fusion of the two. That is absolute Power. And if That was realised physically... probably it would be the end of the problem. Indeed, during the few hours I lived like that this morning, the feeling was that everything has been mastered and everything understood – and “understood'' in that way of comprehension which makes the power absolute. But naturally that cannot be said. It is that which people who must have had the experience or a touch of the experience translated by saying that this world was the world of equilibrium: that is to say, it is the simultaneity, without division, of all contraries. As soon as there is some divergence – not even divergence, any difference – it is the beginning of division. And whatever is not that state cannot be eternal; it is that state alone which... not merely contains but expresses (or what?) the eternity. There have been all kinds of philosophies that have tried to explain that, but it is up in the air, it is mental, it is speculative. But that, it is lived “lived'', I mean: to be that.
Is it the material equivalent of a psychological experience one has in which the perception of the evil disappears completely in the perception of an absolute Good, even in the evil?
Yes, that is it. One might say that instead of being just a mental conception, it is a concrete realisation of the fact. Page – 114
About a note written by Mother concerning an ordeal that threatened her physical body.
The doctor advises not to get tired. What is it that tires? Only that which is useless. To see sincere people to whom it does good is not tiring. But those who come to weigh theories and practices, those who in their intelligence believe they are very superior and are capable of distinguishing the true from the false, who imagine that they can decide whether a teaching is true and whether a practice agrees with the Supreme Reality those are indeed tiring and to see them is useless, to say the least. Let these beings of higher intelligence trot as they please on their way which will continue thousands of years and leave simple people of goodwill, those who believe in the divine Grace, to advance quietly on their path of light. Page – 115
It was interesting, my child. I have kept all these notes. We will go through them. It is not finished. It is not finished and I do not know when it will be finished. Have you news?
No, Mother. I had seen something before 15th August, one night, about 11th August. I saw an enormous, fantastic wave of white foam, a wave taller than a house, fantastic; and driven by this wave a huge boat, all black, which seemed to roll upon the rocks, but not get crushed: it was pushed by this wave. There was another, much smaller, of light grey colour it seemed to me, but going at a still greater speed. And this fantastic wave of white foam...
Many things are astir over there.... You know the happenings in Czechoslovakia? It is on the move. A black boat?
Yes, a huge boat. And curiously, one had the feeling that it was rolling upon the rocks (also black), without being crushed however.
I am sure the movement has started.... How long will it take to come to a concrete, visible and organised realisation? I don't know. Something has started.... It seems it must be the onrush of the new species, the new creation, or a new creation in any case. A terrestrial reorganisation and a new creation. For me things became very acute.... It was impossible for me to utter a word, a single word: as soon as I began to talk, Page - 116 I started coughing, coughing, coughing. Then I saw it was decided that I should not speak. And I remained in that way and I let the curve develop itself. Afterwards I understood. We are not at the end, but... (how to say it?) we are on the other side. There was a moment when things were so acute.... Usually I do not lose patience, but it had reached a point where everything, everything in the being was as though annulled. Not only could I not speak, but the head was in a state in which it had never been in the whole of my life: painful, indeed. I did not see at all, I did not hear at all. Then one day (I will tell you my experiences presently), one day things were really... it was pain, suffering everywhere; the body said, it said indeed very spontaneously and very strongly: “It is all the same to me if I am dissolved, and I am also quite ready to live, but the state in which I am is impossible, it cannot continue – either to live or to die, but not this.'' From that moment, it began to be a little better. Then, little by little things got settled, put in their places. I took down notes, they are not worth much, but I believe they may be useful. (Mother looks for the notes on a table near her.) I still do not see. I do not see, only I know.
The first note is dated 22nd August:
“For several hours, the landscape was marvellous, of a perfect harmony. “Also, for a long time, visions of the inside of huge temples, of living deities. Each thing had a reason, a precise aim, to express states of consciousness not mentalised. “Visions constantly. “Landscapes. “Buildings. “Towns. “Everything vast and greatly varied, covering the entire visual field and translating the states of body consciousness. “Many, many buildings, huge towns being built...” Page - 117 Yes, the world is being built, the future world is being built. I was no longer hearing, I was no longer seeing, I was no longer speaking: I was living within there, all the while, all the while, all the while, night and day. Then as soon as I was able to note down, I noted down that.
“All sorts of styles of construction, above all new, inexpressible. They are not pictures seen, but places where I happen to be.''
Yes, it is that. I will explain to you what happened. There is another note here which is the beginning:
“The vital and the mental are sent away so that the physical is truly left to its own resources.''
All by itself. All by itself ¹. And it was then that I found out to what extent the vital and the mental make what we see and hear and speak. It was... I could see, in the sense that I could move, but it was all very imprecise. Imprecise. I could hear even less than before, that is to say, very little, just a little; sometimes the same as before; sometimes just a little sound, very far away, which others could not hear, I heard. And when they spoke to me, I did not hear them: “What do you say?'' I do not know. And that continuously, day and night. One night (it is to tell you that everything was topsy-turvy), but one night I had trouble. Something had happened and I
¹ A few days later, Mother added: “The vital and the mental have left, but the psychic being has not left at all. It is the intermediaries that have left. For example, the contact with people (the contact with people who are present and even with those who are not here), the relation with them has remained the same, absolutely the same. It is even more constant.” Page – 118 had a pretty severe pain and it was impossible to sleep. I remained concentrated in that condition and the night passed, it seemed to me, in a few minutes. Then at other times, on other days, at other moments, I remained concentrated, and from time to time I asked what time it was. Once it seemed to me that I had remained so for hours and hours, and I asked for the time: five minutes only.... So everything seemed to be, I cannot say topsy-turvy, but it was a very different order, very different. On the 23rd, it was the birthday of X. I had called him and he was seated. All at once, yes, all at once the head began to be active – not the “head'', not “thought'' (Mother shows some kind of currents and waves passing through her); I do not know how to explain it: it was not a thought, they were a sort of visions, perceptions. And then I put to him some questions and he took them down. (Mother hands to the disciple a typed note.) He has noted down only my questions, not his answers.
“Mother said on the afternoon of 23rd August 1968: “Do they know how Matter was formed?''
It was the physical that put the questions. I do not know, but probably in contact with the atmosphere of X,¹ the body became interested in knowing how all that was formed. And X was there, I knew he could answer; so I put to him the questions.
“Do they know how Matter was formed? “To say that it is condensed energy is merely to push back the question. “The true question is: How did the Supreme manage to manifest Himself in Matter?''
You see, these subjects that are considered so important, so
¹ X was a scientist. Page - 119 vast, so noble, so... I speak of them in an altogether childlike tone and with quite ordinary words (Mother laughs).
“Do they know since when the earth has existed? “When you speak of millions and millions of years, what does that mean?''
They had no watches, you understand! It was the body, with the simplicity of a child, which said: “You speak of millions and millions of years; with what have you measured?''
“Are they sure that what we call one year has always represented the same thing?... I had, in this period, the consciousness of the unreality of our normal conception of time. Sometimes one minute seemed interminable; at other times, hours, even a whole day passed without seeming to have existed. “Do they say there was a beginning?''
(Here X explains to Mother the theory according to which the universe passes through successive periods of expansion and contraction, and this theory seems to please Mother.)
Yes, they are the pralayas.
“Now it is the body that is putting these questions. The mind has left long ago. But the body, the cells of the body would like to have contact with the true being, without having to pass, so to say, through the vital or even through the mind. That is what is happening. “During this period I have had two or three times the Knowledge.” Page - 120 Ah! I have had moments, twice or thrice, absolutely wonderful and unique moments – they are untranslatable, untranslatable.
“But as soon as you are aware of such an experience...”
You have the experience and then you become aware of having it; and as soon as you become aware of having it, it gets obscured, something gets obscured.
Yes, it is the whole phenomenon of mental objectification which basically will disappear in the coming species.
Yes, it seems to be like that.
As soon as you are aware of such an experience, as soon as it is marked in the memory, it is already completely falsified. “Basically, this is what happens to the scientists. When they have just a bit of knowledge, they must clothe it, dress it up, to make it accessible to human consciousness, understandable to the mind. “(After a silence, Mother puts another question:) Do they know since when man came into existence? “It will take less time for the superman to appear than it took man to develop, but it is nothing immediate.”
That day, the 23rd, I was still... I was still like pulp, my child! So I told myself: to come out of this pulpy state and to become someone effective, someone who exists and acts, well, it will take long. That is what I told him.
But you say also in concluding the note: Page - 121 “We will have done what we could.”
Yes, I said it to console him! Well, last night, this is what happened (Mother hands another note to the disciple, written by herself).
“Night of the 26th to 27th “Powerful and prolonged penetration of supramental forces into the body, everywhere at the same time...”
Penetration into the body. Yes, penetration of the current, I had had on many occasions, but that night (that is to say, the night before last), it came all of a sudden, as though there was nothing but a supramental atmosphere; there was nothing but that. And my body was within it. That was pressing to enter, from everywhere, everywhere, everywhere at the same time – everywhere. So it was not a current that was entering, it was an atmosphere that penetrated from everywhere. That continued for at least four or five hours. And there was only one part that was hardly penetrated, it was from here to there (Mother indicates between the throat and the crown of the head): there, it had a grey and dull look, as though the current penetrated less there.... But apart from that, all the rest, all... it entered and entered and entered.... I never, never saw anything like it, never! It lasted for hours and hours. Altogether consciously. So, at the time when it came and during the time it was there, I was conscious: “Ah, it is for that, it is for that: it is that, it is that which You want of me, O Lord! It is for that, it is for that, it is that which You want.'' At that moment I had the feeling that something was about to happen. I hoped for its return this night, but nothing came about. It was the first time. For hours. There was nothing else but That. And this (Mother's body), it was like an absorbing sponge. Only the head, it is still grey, dull – grey and dull. But Page - 122 then, all the same, a very clear vision of whatever has happened to the body during these few months, and... almost a hope. Almost a hope, it is as though someone told me that something could happen here. That's all. And this, it was as though an answer to what the body had said (perhaps two or three days back), what I told you in the beginning: that it was quite ready to get dissolved (it is a perfect surrender) and it was quite ready to continue to live, under any circumstances whatever, but not in that condition. Not in that condition of decomposition. To that, however, there was no answer for two days, and then there came this Penetration. That is to say, the very next day I began to feel a little better, I could begin to... I could not even remain standing! I did not have the sense of balance; someone had to hold me. I had lost the sense of balance, I could not take a step. It was there that I protested. And from the next morning it began to recover. Then came the 23rd. I saw X and I noticed that when he was there the body was quite interested; no, it was not the mental or the vital: they had left! I do not know if you are able to realise what that means.
Yes, it is fantastic.
A body without the mind, without the vital. It was in that condition when X came in. There were only these perceptions (towns, buildings, temples), it lived in soul states: there were the soul states of others, the soul states of the earth, the soul states ... Soul states that were translated by images. It was interesting. I cannot say it was not interesting; it was interesting, but there was no contact with material life, very little: I could hardly eat, hardly walk... in short, it was something with which one had to busy oneself. And then, at the contact of X, the body began to be interested in all that, to put questions quite spontaneously, it did not Page - 123 know why. It asked and asked: “Well, it is in that way that one is made...” it began to amuse itself. It will take a little time. When this Penetration came, the day before yesterday, I said to myself: “Ah!'' I hoped that the curve would get accelerated and one would come out soon, but this night there was nothing. That makes me say that it will take some time more.
But it is curious, your note of the 26th to the 27th adds this:
“... as though the whole body bathed in the forces that penetrated everywhere at the same time with a slight friction. ''
And then you say:
“The head down to the neck was the least receptive region.''
It is curious that it was the least receptive.
No, it is the most mentalised region, isn't it? It is the mind that offers the obstacle.
It is curious, each time you had one of these great moments, or these big blows, if I may say so, each time it was the mental and the vital that were swept away. The first time also, in 1962.
Yes, each time. I know, it is so: the mental and the vital have been the instruments for... grinding Matter – to grind and grind and grind in every way, the vital by its sensations, the mind by its thoughts – to grind and grind. But they seem to me to be passing instruments Page – 124 that will be replaced by other states of consciousness. You understand, it is a phase of universal development, and they will be... they will fall away as instruments no longer useful. And then I have had the concrete experience of what is this Matter ground by the vital and the mental, but without the vital and without the mental ... it is another thing. But this “perception of soul states'', there were things... marvels! No mental conception, none, can be so wonderful, none. I have passed through moments... whatever one can feel, see, humanly, is nothing in comparison with that. There were moments... moments absolutely wonderful. But without thought, without thought.
There are still several notes there which I have not read out to you. You say:
“For man, in the majority of cases, consciousness begins with sensation. For the body, all the sensations were as if reduced, or rather suppressed: sight and hearing as if behind a veil. But extremely clear perception of the degree of harmony or disharmony. A translation in image: not thought, not even felt.''
I told you, I have seen... it is not “seen'' as a picture is seen; it is to be within, within a certain place. I never saw or felt anything so beautiful as that, and it was not felt, it was... I do not know how to explain it. There were moments absolutely wonderful, wonderful, unique. And this was not thought, I could not even describe – how to describe? You can begin to describe only when you begin to think.
There is yet another note:
“The state of consciousness of the body and the quality Page - 125 of its activity depend on the individual or individuals with whom it happens to be.''
Ah! that was very interesting. It was very interesting because I saw it like this (gesture as of a film being unrolled), it was changing. Someone was approaching me: there was a change in it. Something happened to someone: there was a change in it. I had near me Y and Z ; my child, one day... I do not know what happened to them: they were superhuman; one day when probably in appearance I was in danger, I do not know, one day, during the whole day, images (not “images'': these places where I was), it was so wonderfully beautiful, harmonious... it was inexpressible, inexpressible. And then, the least thing that changed in their consciousness, ah, there, all began to change! It was a kind of perpetual kaleidoscope, day and night. If one could note that down... it was unique; it was unique. And the body was inside there, yes, almost porous-porous, without resistance as though the thing was passing through. I have had some most wonderful hours, I believe the most wonderful that one can have upon earth. And then, it was so expressive and so revealing. So expressive. One night, for two hours, these temples of which I speak (it is not physical), so immense, so majestic... the living deities, my child! not images. And I know what it is. And then the state of consciousness of Eternity, oh!... as though above all circumstances. There were things unique, but how to relate them?... Impossible, impossible, not even sufficient consciousness to be able to write.
The note continues:
“The seat and the field of its [the body's] consciousness as well as the quality of its activity change and vary according to the beings present, on a whole scale Page - 126 from the most material up to the most spiritual, passing through all varieties of intellectual activity. “But the perception of the Presence is constant and associated with all states of consciousness, whatever they are...”
Ah! I became aware that the cells, everywhere like this, all the time, all the time were repeating their Mantra, all the time, all the time.
“And the Mantra is repeated spontaneously and automatically in a kind of ‘fluid' peace.”
It is for this, well, one cannot say that it was suffering, one cannot say that it was ill; this is not possible, not possible. Page - 127 |