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INTERPRETATIONS OF SOME "PRAYERS" ¹ AND CONVERSATIONS" ² OF THE MOTHER
I. "PRAYERS AND MEDITATIONS"
Q: In some of the Mother's Prayers which are addressed to "divin Maître" I find the words: "avec notre divine Mère". How can the Mother and "divine Maître" have a "divine Mère" ? It is as if the Mother was not the "divine Mère'' and there was some other Mother and the "divin Maître" was not the Transcendent and had also a "divine Mère" ! Or is it that all these are addressed to something impersonal ? A: The Prayers are mostly written in an identification with the earth-consciousness. It is the Mother in the lower nature addressing the Mother in the higher nature, the Mother herself carrying on the Sadhana of the earth-consciousness for the transformation praying to herself above from whom the forces of transformation come. This continues till the identification of the earth-consciousness and the higher consciousness is effected. The word "notre" is general, I believe, referring to all born into the earth-consciousness — it does not mean the Mother of the "Divin Maître" and myself. It is the Divine who is always referred to as Divin Maître and Seigneur. There is the Mother who is carrying on the Sadhana and the Divine Mother, both being one but in different poises, and both turn to the Seigneur or Divine Master. This kind of prayer from the Divine to the Divine you will find also in the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. 21-8-1936
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¹ The "Prayers" of the Mother, originally written in French, were subsequently published under the title Prières et Méditations. Some of them, translated by Sri Aurobindo in English, are included in Part Three of this volume. ² Conversations is a record of the Mother's talks in English with a small group of disciples in 1929.
Page - 383 (This is Sri Aurobindo's answer to the Mother's letter dated 26-11-1915 containing a record of her experience. The Mother's letter has been included in Part Three. See pp. 471-72.) The experience you have described is Vedic in the real sense, though not one which would easily be recognised by the modern systems of Yoga which call themselves Yogic. It is the union of the "Earth" of the Veda and Purana with the divine Principle, an earth which is said to be above our earth, that is to say, the physical being and consciousness of which the world and the body are only images. But the modern Yogas hardly recognise the possibility of a material union with the Divine. 31-12-1915
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Q: There are some Prayers of the Mother of 1914 in which she speaks of transformation and manifestation. Since at that time she was not here, does this not mean that she had these ideas long before she came here ? A: The Mother had been spiritually conscious from her youth, even from her childhood, upward and she had done Sadhana and had developed this knowledge very long before she came to India. 23-12-1933
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Q: Nothing is more important than: "Ta splendour veut rayonner" as the Mother says in her Prayer of the 16th June 1914. All ideas of perfection for oneself or being an instrument seem flat and insipid when considered from the standpoint of the vast universal movement of consciousness. A: It is correct. Perfection for oneself is not the true ideal. Sadhana and instrumentation are only useful as a means for the "rayonnement". 30-4-1936
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Page - 384 Q: In her Prayer of the 17th May 1914, the Mother says, "Telles furent les deux phrases que j'écrivis hier par une sorte de nécessité absolute. La premiére, comme si la puissance de la priére ne serait compléte que si elle était tracée sur le papier". It is true that a prayer is not sufficiently powerful when it is kept unexpressed by speech or writing, and that its expression is necessary to make it completely powerful ?
A: It was not meant as a general rule — it was only a necessity felt with regard to that particular prayer and that experience. It all depends on the person, the condition, the need of the moment or of that stage or phase of the consciousness. These things in spiritual experience are always plastic and variable. In some conditions or in one phase or at one moment expression may be needed to bring out the effectuating force of the prayer or the stability of the experience; in another condition or phase or at another moment it may be the opposite, expression would rather disperse the force or break the stability. 21-6-1936 *
Q: The Mother's Prayer of the 12th December 1914, begins with: "Il faut à chaque instant savoir tout perdre pour tout gagner ..." The Isha Upanishad also says: "tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā". Do not these two statements refer to the same truth ? A: Yes, certainly. It is essentially the same truth put in different ways. It might be put in a negative form — "if we cling to things as they are in their imperfection in the Ignorance, we cannot have them in their truth and perfection in the Divine Light, Harmony and Ananda". 16-8-1935
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Page - 385 Q: In one of her Prayers the Mother says: "The joy contained in activity is superseded by a greater joy in withdrawal from activity". This implies that withdrawal from activity is preferable to activity.
A: Do you think the Mother has a rigid mind like you people and was laying down a hard and fast rule, for all time and all people and all conditions ? It refers to a certain stage when the consciousness is sometimes in activity and when not in activity withdrawn in itself. Afterwards comes a stage when the Sachchidananda condition is there in work also. There is a still further stage when both are as it were one, but that is the supramental. The two states are the silent Brahman and the active Brahman and they can alternate (1st stage), coexist (2nd stage), fuse (3rd stage). If you reach even the first stage then you can think of applying Mother's dictum, but why misapply it now ? Q: Is it possible to have the highest Sachchidananda realisation in work ? A: Certainly it is realisable in work. Good Lord ! How could the integral Yoga exist if it were not ?
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Q:
The Mother says in her "Prayers" that experience is willed by the
Divine. Am I then to suppose that dearth or abundance of experiences is in
any given case willed
by the Divine ? A: To say so has no value unless you realise all things as coming from the Divine. One who has realised as the Mother had realised in the midst of terrible sufferings and difficulties that even these came from the Divine and were preparing her for her work can make a spiritual use of such an attitude. For others it may lead to wrong conclusions. 10-5-1934
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Page - 386 Q: The Mother in her Prayer of the 4th August 1914, says: "Les hommes, poussés par Ie conflit des forces, accomplissent un sublime sacrifice ...." Apparently she refers to the great war; but, as a result of that war has any "pure lumière'' filled the hearts of men or the "Force Divine" spread on earth or something beneficial come out from that chaos, as she mentions ? Since the nations are once more preparing for war and are in a state of constant conflict, there seems to be no indication of any change in the inner condition of men. People all over the world including even the Indians seems to be wanting another war and hardly anyone seems to require Peace, Light or Love.
A: There has been a change for the worse — the descent of the vital world into the human. On the other hand except in the "possessed" nations there is a greater longing for peace and feeling that such things ought not to happen. India did not get any real touch of the war. However what the Mother was thinking of was an opening to the spiritual truth. That has at least tried to come. There is a widespread dissatisfaction with the old material civilisation, a seeking for some deeper light and truth — only unfortunately it is being taken advantage of by the old religions and only a very small minority is consciously searching for the new Light. 9-6-1936
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Q: You said that after the great war there has been "the descent of the vital world into the human". But did not the vital world already descend on earth — in Matter — even before the human beings came ? What other vital world remained yet to descend into the human ? And how is it that it decided to come down just at present — to prevent the higher Light from coming down in the human world ? A: When there is a pressure on the vital world due to the preparing
Page - 387 Descent from above, that world usually precipitates something of itself into the human. The vital world is very large and far exceeds the human in extent. But usually it dominates by influence not by descent. Of course the effort of this part of the vital world is always to maintain humanity under its sway and prevent the higher Light. 9-6-1936
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Q: If, as you say, there has been a change for the worse due to the descent of the vital world, would it not make the supramental descent in the earth-consciousness impossible or postpone its coming to some distant future instead of "here and now" ? And since the possessed nations are endowed with all the possible material power, there seems to be little hope of any movement of peace being successful. A: The vital descent cannot prevent the supramental — still less can the possessed nations do it by their material power, since the supramental descent is primarily a spiritual fact which will bear its necessary outward consequences. What previous vital descents have done is to falsify the Light that came down as in the history of Christianity where it took possession of the teaching and distorted it and deprived it of any widespread fulfilment. But the supermind is by definition a Light that cannot be distorted if it comes in its own right and by its own presence. It is only when it holds itself back and allows inferior Powers of consciousness to use a diminished and already deflected Truth that the knowledge can be seized by the vital Forces and made to serve their own purpose. 12-6-1936 *
Q: In her Prayer of the 16th August 1914, the Mother refers to "chacun des grands êtres Asouriques qui ont résolu d'être Tes serviteurs ...."
Page - 388 How was it that the Asuras determined the servants of the Divine ? Was it to exploit the Divine or a "coup de diplomatic'' ? A: It was in reference to Asuras who had taken birth in humane bodies — a thing they usually avoid if they can, for they prefer to possess human beings without taking birth — with the claim that they wanted to regenerate themselves by serving the Divine and doing his work. It did not succeed very well. 15-6-1936
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Q: Is there really an internal progress in the universe — "marche interne d'univers", as the Mother says ? Except in a few individuals there is hardly any progress in mankind. Internally and externally the universe seems to be moving in the same circle always without making any essential progress.
A: "Univers" in French usually means not the whole universe but the "world" — the earth. There must be a progress in the earth-consciousness, otherwise there could have been no evolution. The evolution of mankind may go by circles or spirals, but there is all the time an opening of more and more complete possibilities till the possibility of the evolution of a higher race becomes valid. 1-9-1936 *
Q: In a book named "Eveillez-vous" (translated from English), there are some ideas — like those about the Advent, the hostile beings, etc. — similar to our own. There is also a phrase in the book, "La Paix règnera sur terre", which also occurs in the Mother's "Prayers". Has the author not copied this phrase from the Mothers "Prayers" (unpublished) ?
Page - 389 A: Not necessarily, as the phrase can easily come to one who has read the Bible and the English are very biblical. The idea of the hostile beings also is not new, in fact it is as old as the Veda. The expectation of the Advent is also pretty widespread, as according to the old prophecies it must be when the Advent is due. 16-9-1935 II. "CONVERSATIONS"
Q: The Mother asks "What do you want the Yoga for ? To get power ?" [ Conversations (July 1971 edition), p. 4.] Does ''power" here mean the power to communicate one's own experience to others ? What does it precisely mean ? A: Power is a general term — it is not confined to a power to communicate. The most usual form of power is control over things, persons, events, forces. 1-1-1937 *
Q: The Mother says "What is required is concentration — concentration upon the Divine with a view to an integral and absolute consecration to its Will and Purpose". (Ibid.) Is its Will different from its Purpose ? A: The two words have not the same meaning. Purpose means the intention, the object in view towards which the Divine is working. Will is a wider term than that. 1-1-1937 *
Q: "Concentrate in the heart". (Ibid.) What is concentration ? What is meditation ?
Page - 390 A: Concentration means gathering of the consciousness into one centre and fixing it in one object or in one idea or in one condition. Meditation is a general term which can include many kinds of inner activity. 1-1-1937
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Q: "A fire is burning there is burning there .... It is the divinity in you — your true being. Hear its voice, follow its dictates". (Ibid., p. 4.) I have never seen this fire in me. Yet I feel I know the divinity in me. I feel I hear its voice and I try my utmost to follow its dictates. Should I doubt my feeling ? A: No, what you feel is probably the intimation from the psychic being through the mind. To be directly conscious of the psychic fire, one must have the subtle vision and subtle sense active or else the direct action of the psychic acting as a manifest power in the consciousness. 2-1-1937
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Q: "We have all met in previous lives". (Ibid., p. 6.) Who precisely are "we" ? Do both of you remember me ? Did I often serve you for this work in the past ? A: It is a general principle announced which covers all who are called to the work. At the time the Mother was seeing the past (or part of it) of those to whom she spoke and that is why she said this. At present we are too much occupied with the crucial work in the physical consciousness to go into these things. Moreover we find that it encouraged a sort of vital romanticism in the Sadhaks which made them attach more importance to these things than to the hard work of Sadhana, so we have stopped speaking of past lives and personalities. 2-1-1937
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Page - 391 Q: "There are two paths of Yoga, one of Tapasya (discipline) and the other of surrender". (Ibid., p. 7.) Once you interpreted my vision us Agni, the fire of purification and Tapasya producing the Sun of Truth. What path do I follow ? What place has Tapasya in the path of surrender ? Can one do absolutely without Tapasya in the path of surrender ? A: There is a tapasyā that takes place automatically as the result of surrender and there is a discipline that one carries out by one's own unaided effort — it is the latter that is meant in the "two paths of Yoga". But Agni as the fire of tapasyā can burn in either case. 4-1-1937 *
Q: "The strength of such impulses as those of sex lies usually in the fact that people take too much notice of them". (Ibid., p. 8.) What are the other impulses referred to ? A: It refers to strong vital impulses. 4-1-1937 *
Q: "The whole world is full of the poison. You take it in with every breath". (Ibid., p. 10.) How long is a Sadhak subject to this fear of catching contagion ? I feel I won't catch such a contagion now. Is my feeling trustworthy ? A: I don't know that it is. One has to go very far on the path before one is so secure as that. 4-1-1937 *
Page - 392 Q: "But to those who possess the necessary basis and foundation we say, on the contrary, 'aspire and draw' ". (Ibid., p. 15.) Does this capacity to aspire and draw indicate a great advance already made ? A: No. It is a comparatively elementary stage. 5-1-1937
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: "Spiritual experience means the contact with the Divine in oneself (or without, which comes to the same thing in that domain)". (Ibid., p. 22.) What is meant by the Divine "without" ? Does it mean the cosmic Divine or the transcendental or both ? A: It means the Divine seen outside in things, beings, events etc., etc. 9-1-1937
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Q: Was Jeanne d''Arc's nature transformed even a little because of her relation with the two Archangels, the two beings of the Overmind ? (See Ibid.) A: I don't see how the question of transformation comes in. Jeanne d'Arc was not practising Yoga or seeking transformation. 9-1-1937 *
Q: How can one distinguish between a dream of deeper origin and a vision ? (See Ibid., p. 18.) A: There is no criterion, but one can easily distinguish if one is in the inward condition, not sleep, in which most visions take place, by the nature of the impression made. A vision in dream is more
Page - 393 difficult to distinguish from a vivid dream-experience but one gets to feel the difference. 9 -1-1937 *
Q: Sometimes one remember the dreams, sometimes one does not. (See Ibid., p. 19.) Why is it so ? A: It depends on the connection between the two states of consciousness at the time of waking. Usually there is a turn over of the consciousness in which the dream-state disappears more or less abruptly, effacing the fugitive impression made by the dream events (or rather their transcription) on the physical sheath. If the waking is more composed (less abrupt) or, if the impression is very strong, then the memory remains at least of the last dream. In the last case one may remember the dream for a long time, but usually after getting up the dream memories fade away. Those who want to remember their dreams sometimes make a practice of lying quiet and tracing backwards, recovering the dreams one by one. When the dream-state is very light, one can remember more dreams than when it is heavy. 9-1-1937 *
Q: "You have no longer anything that you can call your own; you feel everything as coming from the Divine, and you have to offer it back to its source. When you can realise that, then even the smallest thing to which you do not usually pay much attention or care, ceases to be trivial and insignificant; it becomes full of meaning and it opens up a vast horizon beyond". (See Ibid., p. 28.) Is this as elementary a stage as the stage of "aspire and draw" ? A: Not so elementary. 14-1-1937
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Page - 394 Q: "But if we want the Divine to reign here we must give all we have and are and do here to the Divine". (Ibid., p. 30.) If one does this completely has he anything more to do ? A: No. But it is not easy to do it completely. 14-1-1937
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Q: How can we recognise who gives all he has and is and does to the Divine ? A: You can't, unless you have the inner vision. 14-1-1937 *
Q: "For there is nothing in the world which has not its ultimate truth and support in the Divine". (Ibid., p. 33.) To know this perfectly by experience is to have a very great attainment, perhaps the final attainment; am I right ? A: Yes. 19-1-1937 *
Q: "Obviously, what has happened had to happen; it would not have been, if it had not been intended". (Ibid.) Then, what is the place of repentance in man's life ? Has it any place in the life of a Sadhak ? A: The place of repentance is in its effect for the future — if it induces the nature to turn from the state of things that brought about the happening. For the Sadhak however it is not repentance
Page - 395 but recognition of wrong movement and the necessity of its not recurring that is needed. 19-1-1937 *
Q: "You are tied to the chain of Karma, and there, in that chain, whatever happens is rigorously the consequence of what has been done before". (Ibid., p. 35.) Does "before" mean all the past lives, beginning from the very first up to this one ?
A: That is taking things in the mass. In a metaphysical sense whatever happens is the consequence of all that has gone before up to the moment of the action. Practically particular consequences have particular antecedents in the past and it is these that are said to determine it. (From where are these quotations ? In the exact intention of a sentence much sometimes depends on the context. (It is obvious from the remark of Sri Aurobindo that while answering this series of questions, he was not aware that the quotations cited in the question were from the Mother's book Conversation.) ) 19-1-1937
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Q: "Many people would tell you wonderful tales of how the world was built and how it will proceed in the future, how and where you were born in the past and what you will be hereafter, the lives you have lived and the lives you will still live. All this has nothing to do with spiritual life". (Ibid. p. 47.)
Is what such people say a complete humbug ? Is there a process other than the spiritual by which one can know all these things ?
A: Often it is, but even if it is correct, it has nothing spiritual in
Page - 396 it. Many mediums, clairvoyants or people with a special faculty tell you these things. That faculty is no more spiritual than the capacity to build a bridge or to cook a nice dish or to solve a mathematical problem. There are intellectual capacities, there are occult capacities — that is all. 20-1-1937
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Q: "They [the vampires] are not human; there is only an human form or appearance .... Their method is to try first to cast their influence upon a man; then they enter slowly into his atmosphere and in the end may get complete possession of him, driving out entirely the real human soul and personality". (Ibid., pp. 49 - 50.)
X has married a girl who, the Mother has said, is vampire-like to some extent. Is he then under all these risks ? What precautions should he take ? Shall I warn him ?
A: First of all what is meant is not that the vampire or vital being even in possession of a human body tries to possess yet another human being. All that is the description of how a disembodied (vampire) vital being takes possession of a human body without being born into it in the ordinary way — for that is their desire, to possess a human body but not by the way of birth. Once thus human, the danger they are for others is that they feed on the vitality of those who are in contact with them — that is all.
Secondly in this case. Mother only said vampire-like to some extent. That does not mean that she is one of these beings, but has to some extent the habit of feeding on the vitality of others. There is no need to say anything to X. It would only disturb him and not help in the least. 27-1-1937
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Page - 397
Q: The
Mother, in her "Conversations" says that the first effect of Yoga is
to take away the mental control so that the ideas and desires which were so long
checked become surprisingly prominent and create
difficulties. (See
Ibid., p. 8.)
What is meant by the mental control being removed is that the mental simply kept them in check but could not remove them. So in Yoga the mental has to be replaced by the psychic or spiritual self-control which could do what the vital cannot, only many Sadhaks do not make this exchange in time and withdraw the mental control merely. 12-5-1933 *
Q: In "Conversations" the
Mother says: "One who dances and jumps and screams has the feeling that he
is somehow very unusual in his excitement; and his vital nature takes
great pleasure in that". (Ibid., p. 15) Does she mean that one should be usual instead of
unusual in one's excitement during spiritual experience
? 7-6-1933 *
Q: What does Mother mean by the sentence in "Conversations": "When you eat, you must feel that it is the Divine who is eating through you" ? (Ibid., p. 29.) *
Page - 398 A: It means an offering of the food not to the ego or desire but to the Divine, who is behind all action. 11-1-1935
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Q: In "Conversations" the Mother speaks of the power of thoughts and gives the example that if "you have a keen desire for a certain person to come and that, along with this vital impulse of desire, a strong imagination accompanies the mental formation you have made .... And if there is a sufficient power of will in your thought-form, if it is a well-built formation, it will arrive at its own realisation". (Ibid., pp. 58-9.)
In the
example given, suppose there is no strong desire in the vital but only thoughts
or vague imaginations in the mind, would they go and induce that person to come
? 26-8-1936
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Q: In "Conversations" the Mother says that depression or discouragement cut holes in the nervous envelope and make hostile attacks more easy. (See Ibid., p. 102.) In one sense this means that a man with goodwill should not discourage anyone's wrong ideas, impulses or movements. But would this not be against the principles in ordinary life as well as in Sadhana ? There is the way of keeping silent when dealing with such people, but even that sometimes hurts them more than a point-blank discouragement.
Would the bad effects of depression and discouragement indicated by the Mother happen in ordinary life also ?
Page - 399 A: The knowledge about the bad effect of depressions is meant for the Sadhak to learn to avoid these things. He cannot expect people to flatter his failures or mistakes or indulge his foibles merely because he has the self-habit of indulging in depression and hurting his nervous envelope if that is done. To keep himself free from depression is his business, not that of others. For instance some people have the habit of getting into depression if the Mother does not comply with their desires — it does not follow that the Mother must comply with their desires in order to keep them jolly — they must learn to get rid of this habit of mind. So with people's wish of encouragement or praise for all they do. One can be silent or non-intervening, but if even that depresses them, it is their own fault and nobody else's.
Of course, it is the same in ordinary life — depression is always hurtful. But in Sadhana it is more serious because it becomes a strong obstacle to the smooth and rapid progress towards the goal. 18-7-1936
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Q:
In "Entretiens" (The
French translation of Conversations by the Mother)
the Mother says, "Même ceux qui ont la volonté
de s'enfuir, quand ils arrivent de l'autre côté, peuvent trouver que la fuite
ne sert pas à grand' chose après tout".
("And
as for those who have the will of running away, even they when they go
over to the other side, may find that the flight was not of much use after
all." Conversations,
p.
30)
What does "arrivent de l'autre cote" mean in this sentence ? Does it mean
"when they come into this world" or "when they go into the world of
silence which they realised". *
A: No — "Arrivent de l'autre côté" simply means "when they die". What Mother intended was that when they actually arrive at their Nirvana they find it is not the ultimate solution or largest realisation of the Supreme and they must eventually come back and have their share of the world action to reach that largest realisation. 2-5-1935
Page - 400
Q:
The Mother has said in "Entretiens":
"En fait, la mort a été attachée à toute vie sur terre".
("Death
as a fact has been attached to all life upon earth".
Conversations, p.
43)
The words "En fait" and "attachée" tend to
give the impression that after all death is inevitable. But the preceding
sentence — "Si cette croyance pouvait
être rejetée, d'abord de la mentalité consciente ... la mort ne serait plus
inévitable" ("If
this belief could be cast out first from the conscious mind.... death would no
longer be inevitable". Conversations,
p.
43)
— brings in an
ambiguity because it does not make death so
inevitable; it introduces a condition — an "if" —
by which it could be avoided. But the categoricality of the sentence with "En fait" rather dilutes one's expectation of a material
immortality. Moreover, the "if" in the other sentence is too formidable to
be satisfied. 31-7-1936
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