10 December 1969

Progress is going on at a giant's pace – that shakes the house a little, but it goes on at a giant's pace. And for some, like X for example, it is very conscious. She had an accident in the knee long ago and this leg is a little weaker than the other one – there was a possibility of an upsetting. She noticed that so long as she had the correct attitude she felt nothing, there was nothing, it seemed to have gone altogether. As soon as she fell back into the ordinary consciousness, the illness returned..... And she has had innumerable experiences. I found it very interesting. Others also.

And it is truly interesting. It is truly interesting because it has a clarity altogether limpid and obvious, because it is solely a state of consciousness. When one has the consciousness (that is to say, as the consciousness grows more and more true – not something that is arrested, but a consciousness that is ascending), when you are within that, everything is all right; as soon as you fall back into the old consciousness, either unprogressive or progressing slowly and imperceptibly, then the disorder returns. And that is as though a lesson given in an altogether clear and obvious way.

It is truly interesting.

And the body goes on learning. It learns very quickly.  

(Silence)

Surely a big stride will have been taken when man will naturally turn to perfect himself instead of waiting to find perfection in others ... This reversal is the very basis of all true progress. The first human instinct: “It is the fault of circumstances, the fault of people, the fault... this one is like this, that one is like that, the other one...” And this goes on indefinitely. The first step, the very first step is to say: “If I were as I ought  

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to be or if this body were as it ought to be, all would be perfectly all right for it.” If in order to progress, you were to wait for others to progress, you would have to wait indefinitely. That is the very first thing that is to be circulated everywhere. Never put the blame on others or on circumstances, because whatever the circumstances, even those that appear the worst, if you keep the true attitude and have the true consciousness, they will have no importance at all for your inner progress, no importance – I say this and I include even death.

Indeed, that seems to be the first lesson to learn.  

(Silence)

Sri Aurobindo had written (I translate freely) that the notion of sin has been introduced to hasten progress, and immediately (Mother laughs) man saw sin in all others – he never saw it in himself ! Sri Aurobindo's sentence is charming, but I do not remember it.¹

¹ “The sense of sin was necessary in order that man might become disgusted with his own imperfections. It was God's corrective for egoism. But man's egoism meets God's device by being very dully alive to its own sins and very keenly alive to the sins of others.'' (Thoughts and Aphorisms, Cent. Vol. 17, p. 86) 

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13 December 1969

I am receiving continuously, almost daily, the aphorisms of Sri Aurobindo, which I had forgotten completely. There were very interesting things.... Some of them give me the feeling that they are a kind of transcription (one might say “intellectual'', but it is not that, it is a mentalised higher mind, that is to say, it is accessible to thought) of the experience of the supramental consciousness that I had, in which this difference of good and evil and all that, appears as childishness, and Sri Aurobindo expresses it in the aphorisms in a way accessible to the intellect. Only... those who understand do not understand well ! because they understand in the old way.

Do you remember these aphorisms?... There is one where he says: “If I cannot be Rama, then I would be Ravana...” and he explains why. It is in that series.¹

(Silence)

There is a practical problem there: it is clear there are some movements which one would like to eliminate, because one finds that it is a fault, but one does not know how to do it. Is it from above? You put the light upon such a movement each time it comes up, and then...

It depends upon the kind of movement, my child, and in which part of the being and what type of movement.

¹ “Men talk of enemies, but where are they? I only see wrestlers of one party or the other in the great arena of the universe. “The saint and the angel are not the only divinities; admire also the Titan and the Giant. “The old writings call the Titans the elder gods. So they still are, nor is any god entirely divine unless there is hidden in him also a Titan. “If I cannot be Rama, then I would be Ravana; for he is the dark side of Vishnu.'' (Thoughts and Aphorisms, Cent. Vol. 17, pp. 106-07) 

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I am sure that each difficulty is a special problem. You can't make a general rule.

For example, the other day you said that birth is a “purge''... (Mother laughs). You remember: people who have suppressed everything, find the same thing reappearing in the children.

Yes, yes !

And you said that this gave a key to what should not be done.  

Yes.  

Now I would like to know what is the key to cure without suppression? Precisely because the Light is usually thrown, and then the wrong movement is driven underground.

Yes, that is a general rule. The opposite is to be done: instead of driving it underground, it is to be offered. It is to place the thing, the movement itself, to project it into the light.... Generally

¹“For the vast majority of those who bring forth children almost without wanting it, ‘like that', and who have had an education, that is to say, who have had their brains crammed with ideas of certain defects one should not have and of qualities one should have – all that had been driven down into their being, all the vicious instincts, all come up. I have observed and I have seen and I remember some things I read very very long ago – I suppose it was in Renan: he wrote that one must distrust parents who were good and very respectable, because (Mother laughs) birth is a ‘purge' ! And he had said also: observe carefully the children of bad people, because they are often a reaction ! And after my experience, when I had seen, I said to myself: ‘But this man was quite right ! It is a way for men to purge themselves. They throw out of themselves all that they do not want'.... And it is very interesting, because that gives the key to what one has to do. Showing to you what is not to be done, it gives you the key to the thing that is to be done.'' 

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 it wriggles and refuses ! But (Mother laughs) that is the only way. That is why this Consciousness is so precious.... Well, what brings about the suppression is the idea of good and bad, a kind of contempt or shame for what is considered bad, and you do like this (gesture of repulsion), you do not want to see it, you do not want it to be there. It must... The first thing – the very first thing to realise is that it is the weakness of our consciousness that makes this division and that there is a Consciousness (now I am sure of it) in which that does not exist, in which what we call “evil'' is as much necessary as what we call “good'', and that if we can project our sensation – or our activity or our perception – into that Light, that will bring the cure.¹ Instead of suppressing or rejecting it as something to be destroyed (it cannot be destroyed !), it has to be projected into the Light. And because of this I have had for several days a very interesting experience: instead of seeking to throw away far from oneself certain things (which one does not accept, and which produce an imbalance in the being), instead of doing that, to accept them, take them as part of oneself and... (Mother opens her hands) offer them up. They do not want to be offered, but there is a way of compelling them: the resistance is diminished in the proportion as we can diminish in us our sense of disapprobation; if we can replace this sense of disapprobation by a higher understanding, then we succeed. It is much more easy. 

I believe it is that. All, all the movements that drag you down must be put in contact with the higher understanding.

Only, it is beyond the mind obviously. Because, as I said

¹At the time of publishing this talk, Mother added the following comment: “In this Consciousness where the two contraries, the two opposites are joined together, both change their nature, they do not continue to be what they are. They are not simply joined and remain the same: their nature changes and that is of great importance. Their nature, their action, their vibration become wholly different as soon as they are joined together. It is the separation that makes them what they are. Do away with the separation and their very nature changes. It is no longer good or bad, but something else, something that is whole and entire.” 

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presently that the aphorisms of Sri Aurobindo were expressions understandable to the intellect – but all the same that diminishes: it diminishes, it has no longer the dazzle of understanding without words – it is there, there alone that things can be arranged.

Even when it is explained to oneself, it diminishes. One must say nothing. It is like (Mother laughs) putting on a layer of paint that only distorts.

Mother suddenly takes up a notebook nearby and writes her answer to a letter that she had read at the beginning of the interview.

It came that way. It is in that way it happens: all of a sudden, and then it remains and does not want to go away until I write it down. It is amusing.

It is amusing, because it does not correspond (I cannot even say what I am thinking of, because to say the truth, I think no more) to my experience, but to what the other has need of. The answer is dictated for the other. The words, the expressions, the turn of phrase, the presentation differ completely according to the person to whom it is written. And that consciousness which is there (gesture upward) has nothing to do with it. It receives. It receives and then it comes down and it does like this (gesture of hammering) until I write it down ! It does not want to go away until it is written. It is very amusing.... In that way one can work hard without tiring oneself ! (Mother laughs.)

I would like very much to have just a seed.

Take it ! (Mother, laughing, gives her hands.)

Because, even in mental silence – I am always in the habit of writing in mental silence – but in spite of everything, even in this silence I am on guard lest the                                                                                                                                                                      

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old formations or reactions come in and express themselves in the silence.

Ah, yes.  

I am afraid of that.

Yes, old things come up.

But do you not feel they are coming from above?

I feel the Force is there and it comes down.

Yes, and then?

Well, yes, but afterwards, when I write certain things, I say to myself...

Ah ! That happens often.

I say to myself: “Perhaps I should not have said that.''

But then it is the mind that interferes.

I do not know.

That happens to me also. Sometimes I write and then send it off, and afterwards I remember what I had written, and I tell myself: “The devil ! I should not have said that!”... And I find out that it was all right – that it is the reaction –which is a mental reaction.

That has happened to me many a time. For example the other day, I had to write to Z. Very often he writes unacceptable things, but I say nothing; and the other day I wrote to him a rather strong letter asking 

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 him: “What does that mean?'' And afterwards I said to myself, “No, I must not move,'' and I did not send the letter.... What should be done, I do not know?

That, my child...

(Silence) 

It is difficult.

Yes.... But when you turn upward or you aspire or you are like this, open to the supreme Consciousness, it is concrete?

Ah, yes, it is solid.

It is concrete? One must... You understand, there is only one way, the ego must go, that is all. It is that. Only when, there, instead of “I'' there is nothing any more: you know, it is altogether flat like this (gesture signifying something immense, smooth, without a wrinkle), having a kind of... it is not even expressed by words, but a very stable sensation of: “What Thou willest, as Thou willest” (the words become too small). Indeed, to have a concrete sensation that this (the body), this does not exist, it is only used – there is only That. It is That which does like this (gesture of pressure). This feeling of That, this conscious Vastness which (Mother stretches her arms).... In the end you do see it (“seeing'', it is not a vision with images but it is a vision... I do not know with what ! but it is very concrete, much more concrete than the images), a vision of this vast Force, this vast Vibration which presses, presses, presses... and then the world which wriggles under it and the thing which opens, and when it opens, that enters and spreads.

This is truly interesting.

This is the only solution. There is no other. All the rest, 

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 it is aspirations, conceptions, expectations... it is still the superman, it is not the supramental. It is a higher humanity which tries to draw the whole of its humanity upward, but that... that is of no use, of no use.

The picture is very clear, of this whole humanity which clings in order to climb, which seeks to hold like that, but which does not give itself – it wants to take ! And that, that will not do. It must do away with itself. Then the Thing will be able to come and take its place.

The whole secret is there.

For example, all this side of humanity that wants to take things by force and pulls them up there (gesture indicating as high as the forehead)... it is interesting: it is interesting, but it is not that ! It is not that; all these possibilities must be exhausted so that something in humanity is able to understand... that there is only that (Mother opens her hands in a gesture of self-effacement), and then to let oneself lie prostrate till one disappears.

Indeed, that is the most difficult thing: to learn to disappear.  

(Silence) 

Well, my child (Mother laughs), we shall get there ! 

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27 December 1969

There is almost a feeling of being immersed in Matter.... In spite of this kind of apparent absorption in problems and practical work, is any yoga or any thing being done even when we are externally so much absorbed that we have no perception that we are doing anything?

Oh ! But now the whole being (the body has understood it quite well), the whole being knows that everything comes to make you go forward as quickly as possible, everything: obstacles, contradictions, lack of understanding, useless preoccupations, everything, everything, everything to make you go forward; it is for touching one point, then another, then yet another, and make you advance as fast as possible. If you are not concerned with this Matter, how can it change?

And it is very clear, it is quite evident that all objections, all contradictions come merely from a superficial mind which sees only the appearance of things. It is precisely to put your consciousness on guard against that, so that it might not be duped by such things and might see clearly that it is altogether external, superficial, and that behind this, all that is being done is moving as fast as possible towards... transformation.

(Long silence)

Intelligence at its higher level understands very easily that it knows nothing and it falls quite easily into the attitude required for progress, but even they who have this intelligence, when it is a question of material things, have the instinctive feeling that all that is known, understood and founded on established experiences; and there you become vulnerable. And that is exactly what the body is being made to learn, the uselessness 

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of the present way of seeing and understanding things, based on the good, the bad, the fair, the foul, the luminous, the obscure... all these contradictories; and the whole judgment, the whole conception of life is based upon that (the material life), and it is to teach you the inanity of this perception. And I see it. The work has become very acute, very persistent, as though you were called upon to go quickly.

Even the practical part, which thought that it had learnt how to live and know what is to be done and how it is to be done, must also understand that it was not the true knowledge nor the true way of using external things.  

(Silence)

There are even amusing things.... This Consciousness which is at work, it is as though “teasing” the body all the time; all the time it says to it: “You see, you have this sensation; well, what is its basis? You think you know it; do you really know what is there behind it?'' and for all the small things of life, things of every minute. And then the body is like that (Mother opens big astonished eyes) and tells itself: “It is true, I know nothing.” But its answer is always the same, it says: “I do not claim that I know, let the Lord do whatever He wills”, it is like that. And then, there is this thing (if that could be caught permanently, it would be good): non-intervention in the work of the Lord (to say the thing in the simplest way).  

(Silence)

It is demonstrated by the fact, by the experience of every minute that when a thing is done with this kind of feeling of acquired wisdom or of acquired understanding, of an experience lived through, etc., to what degree it is... one may say “false” (misleading, in any case) and that there is some other thing behind which makes use of that (as it does of everything)  

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but is not tied to this knowledge nor dependent upon it nor upon what we call the experience of life nor upon anything of that sort. It has a much more direct, much more profound, much more “distant'' vision; that is to say, it sees much farther, much wider and much in advance, something no external experience can give.... And it is a modest growth, without any outburst, not making a show of anything: it is a very little thing of every minute – every minute, every second, every thing. As though all the while there was something that was showing you the ordinary way of living, of seeing and doing, and then... the true way. Both, like that. For all things.

It is so to such a degree that the attitude towards certain vibrations brings you complete ease or it can make you completely sick ! And it is the same vibration. Things like that, things bewildering. And every minute, it is like that – every minute, for everything.

Well, the consciousness here takes a certain attitude and then it is all delight and harmony; and the thing remains the same, but then (gesture of just a tilt to the left), a slight change in the attitude of the consciousness, and the thing becomes almost unbearable ! Experiences of this kind, all the time, all the time... just to show that there is only one thing that has importance, the attitude of the consciousness: the old attitude of the individual being (gesture of contraction) or that (gesture of expansion). It must be (to put it into words that we understand) the presence of the ego and the abolition of the ego. It is that.

And then, as I have said, for all the actions of life, even the most ordinary, it is demonstrated that if the presence of the ego is suffered (surely to make you understand what it is), it can really lead to an imbalance of health, and that the only remedy is the disappearance of the ego – and at the same time the disappearance of all illness. For things that we consider quite unimportant, quite... And it is for everything, for everything, all the while, all the while, night and day. 

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And then it is complicated by all the misunderstandings and discontentments that come out (Mother makes a gesture as though a cart-load is being poured upon her), as though they were unfastened and they came out, and all that falls at the same time in order... in order that the experience might be total and in all domains.

It is as though a practical demonstration was being given at every minute of the presence of death and of the presence of immortality, like this (Mother slightly tilts her hand to the right and to the left), in the smallest things – in all things, the smallest and the biggest, and constantly; and constantly, you see... whether you are here or you are there (same gesture of tilting to one side or the other). At every second, as if you were called upon to choose between death and immortality.

And for that, I see the body must go through a serious and very thorough preparation in order to be able to bear the impact of the experience without... without any vibration of anxiety or recoil or... it must be able to maintain its peace and its constant smile.

(Long silence) 

There are things... extraordinary things.

As though in everything we were required to live the presence of the opposites to find... to find what is there when the opposites join together – instead of running away when they join. That produces a result. And that in the practical life.  

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